As a parishoner in the Charlotte Diocese, I fully support removing this bishop. I have not liked the lack of reverence I have witnessed saying the NO Mass. He is flippant and going thru the motions as if he wishes he didn't have to. When giving communion, he stands IN FRONT of the altar rails, if the church has them, and refuses to let parishoners kneel inside their church that THEY are paying to participate in. He has placed his zuchetto (Bishops hat) on a female and several male students as if it is a party hat. His leaked letter seals the deal that he is attacking the church. The Diocese of Charlotte was flourishing and this guy is running it into the ground. Not only is this illegal what he is doing according to Catholic documents, it's downright cruel. My husband and I have already decided to send our $ elsewhere to another State but still attend the same church as long as this guy is in charge. We don't trust him.
I think this comment sums up the essence of the “vibe shift”. We have all woken up to the fact that we are under attack, and are now wary of any authority figure who doesn’t at least tacitly acknowledge that fact, and try to limit the impact. People have just had enough. If the traditions of the Catholic Church is so bad, why not join a different organisation?
You can also form an Una Voce group to get a Latin Mass on your own (with priest sponsor). You ou should contact as many priests as you can to let them know your views and enlist help. They need to fight with you, and probably will.
Yes but if you form an Una Voce group like Charlotte Latin Mass Society, it is a non-profit organization to which anyone can donate. The group needs to buy proper vestments, vessels, monstrance, altar cloths, etc. Our local group has received tremendous donations from all over, even across country.
"Ask hard questions"like why are you in the Catholic hrirarchy? Why are you deliberately trying to destroy the church? The time for respect to this prelate has long past. He has absolutely no respect for his flock, whom he has abandoned.
Lucy he is ill-equipped to manage our Diocese. He seems to behave as it’s a party and I suppose this comes from being the priest at Duke for a decade. Attempting to relate to the younger crowd in a clownish way. Can you imagine Bishop Jugis doing this? A classic demonstration of him not knowing his flock is reassigning Fr Marcel (an African priest) from NC A&T (and HPU). Does Bishop Martin really think a white priest will be able to relate to black Catholic students? I was floored when I saw the list published. And 3 or 4 Sabbaticals.
And 4 Priest retirements ! Yes, if I had to report to him I would certainly leave rather than deal with this nonsense. Pray for these Priests leaving and going on Sabbatical. They are holy priests and know they will get themselves defrocked if they stay because they cannot obey him in good conscience. Perhaps they can help their communities better if they do not report to him anymore. His actions are anti-Catholic. Pray for the good Priests still there fighting the righteous fight for their flock.
Yesss that too! I don’t recall ever that many at one time with a large # of sabbaticals. Just received my diocese newspaper so I can pray for these priests by name. We do have a lot of good priests in our diocese and are blessed with a thriving seminary. I pray for our seminarians to remain steadfast and faithful to what is true.
My husband and I feel the exact same way! The priest of our parish recently announced his sabbatical will begin July 8 and now I know why. We are devastated, as he has meant more to our faith than any other priest in our adult lives. I’m just sickened by all of this! One of the beauties of the faith is that its doctrines don’t (or shouldn’t!) change - despite the never ending pressure for everything else in this world to “progress ”. God be with our Catholic brothers and sisters, and the priests who might be silenced by this bishop.
Doctrines don't change; however, bishops like him ignore them and do what they want. Then this puts the Priests below the bishop in an unfair and difficult position of whether to follow Catholic Doctrine/ Canon Law or to be obedient to their Bishop, as they promised in their vows when becoming a Priest. It puts these Priests in a terrible situation knowing what is best for the souls of their flock, but still struggling with the honor of their vow. Of course, this internal conflict wouldn't even exist if the bishop was following the Catholic Faith.
I simply can't believe what you are positing as facts are facts. My feeling is you're a "plant" imposed by the radtrads in order to discredit this bishop. Last time I looked the RC Church was governed by the 2nd Vatican Council no longer by Trent. Why don't you just admit you're not an objective bystander but 1 casting stones?!
Since when do the Church councils replace everything previous? And how is this being an “objective bystander” when we are all one Body of Christ? We should feel the pain of our persecuted brethren.
For the record, I was born in 1970 and never even knew there was such a thing as a Traditional Latin Mass until 1 year ago. Due to the boring folk music, lack of faith and reverence within the Mass, lack of Catechism teaching (even though went to Catholic School a few years and CCD until I graduated), I fell away from the church for about 10 years. I tried other Protestant religions, but they were even less reverent and even more sing-songy. It wasn't until I discovered my Parish and was properly instructed by a reverent Conservative Priest offering a reverent Novus Ordo that I finally realized what I had been missing was finally found. Then to find the Parish ALSO offered a TLM was icing on the cake. I had never seen one and it has drawn me so much closer to God and prayer than I ever imagined would be possible. I go to BOTH NO and TLM depending on my schedule. I don't know the debates of why one is better or more valid or all that other nonsense and I'm not interested in writing a college thesis on the differences. Why on earth would ANYONE stomp on such wonderful results as we see in my traditional parish that has both ? By the fruits, you will know. My Parish has no altar girls - there are 6 to 10 altar boys at any given Sunday Mass. Our Priest and Deacon pass out communion while parishoners kneel at an altar rail. None of this unconsecrated hands, lay people stuff. Most parishoners are around 30-40 years old with children. 7 of the 44 Seminarians currently in the Diocese come from my specific church. Our coffers are bursting over richly. By our fruits, you will know.
"From Vibe Shift to Stick Shift: Bishop (Aston) Martin grinds the gears as he drops his new Diocesan Roadster into Reverse. A cautionary Bertie Wooster Moment."
I won’t ever dispute the notion that there are so-called “traditionalists” out there who are divisive and sometimes just plain jerks. Even as one that most would characterize as a “trad” myself, I’ve seen it and even had such poor behavior directed at me.
But let’s use this as a good demonstration, with human’s of all stripes being of a fallen nature, that those the “Novus Ordo variety” (for lack of a better term) can be just as divisive and act like jerks to others and even be Bishops.
His excellency has just destroyed years of bridge building, creating a whole new generation of trads who will likely now have more divisive voices and a stellar example to point to in order to justify their beliefs to others.
Honestly, the worst part is not the Mass, but the totally abysmal confessions they give. I've had Priests explicitly tell me to "not worry" about certain things that were grave matter. I had a gay colleague who went to confession and the Priest recommend that he "get a boyfriend".
I've heard it said before that sometimes the confessor and/or his counsel is part of the penance. It's helpful to have that mindset when encountering this type of nonsense.
With respect to the point about how people at the NO can be like this: I tell people welcome to the human race a lot. Sometimes I say welcome to the church if they’re really not getting it.
Ban Latin from the Novus Ordo in all parishes, even in prayers such as the Agnus Dei, on the rationale that nobody was smart enough to understand what the responses mean. (A case of self-implication MF Doom warned us about)
Restrict kneeling for communion.
Ban Altar Rails
Restrict reception of communion on the tongue
Ban classical vestments
Ban Altar crucifixes
Ban Altar candles
Banning priests praying privately while vesting
Banning optional prayers by the laity and priest after the conclusion of Mass
So, in short, ban from the Catholic Church everything that makes it the Catholic Church and part of the history of the Church.
I'm a Baptist, but I loved the Latin Masses when I went with friends. It gave me sense of timelessness and order. Everything from the kneeling, to prayers, to psalms, to the communion.
What's the purpose of getting rid of all this? To drive more people from the church and into their own houses again?
What's next, priests not visiting the sick in hospitals?
The purpose is of course the continued destruction of the family and Christianity to usher in a one world religion whatever that may be. It also goes along with the rising number of Muslims throughout Western society who straight up admit they will be the religion of the world. Slowly but surely they are converting lost souls.
First, the bishop’s handling of this matter showed a remarkable lack of prudence, whatever your views on the liturgy.
Secondly, people feel like they have had enough of those in authority apparently doing everything they can to destroy the organisations they are supposed to be running. To me is this is the essence of the vibe shift: just do your job, stop attacking those of us who are still bothering to turn up.
You should ask, who is his handler? This smacks of a globalist agent finding a patsy to work its will to destroy anything in its way! This is not the work on one man!
Leo. And Francis behind him. By the Dead Hand. Recall Martin met Leo in Rome in April. See Chris Jackson’s article today.
I agree with your basic observation that Leo—again just like Francis before him—is the globalist pick. The powers behind the throne to which you refer definitely needed a blander, smoother (kinder and gentler) salesman. The old cantankerous bouncer-image of Bergoglio was wearing thin on friend and foe alike (with the exception of the fawning Catholic press, shout out to John Allen et al.). So while I believe Francis did everything he could to set Leo up as dauphin, that was in consultation with the Deep Church, which in my observing includes the clerical Lavender and Saint Gallen mafia.
It's been documented in Martin's meeting with Pope Leo that he was advised to slow down and don't implement like he's doing ... keep in mind this was after Leo, as the head of the dicastery for bishops, had his opinion, apparently, passed over, in choosing Martin for Charlotte, by Francis.
Two things I always look for as a historian (and even just as a critical reader) and beware are the passive voice and anonymous sources. I for one don’t fully trust the pillar boyz.
Well, neither one indicates the T. L. M. was included in Leo’s alleged “caution.”
All hard evidence so far about Leo points to Francis 2.0.
Well, the T. L. M. wasn’t mentioned in those reports. It referred to Martin’s lunacy mandates on the Novus Ordo (no kneelers, no vestments, no LATIN—because the devil hates Latin) and no you knucklehead Martin you can’t move in to St Marks—3rd largest booming parish in the whole United States/- a cathedral 30 miles outside of downtown Charlotte and make that your new little home.
This Franciscan is a poof who should just build himself a Casa Santa Marta somewhere— where he can indulge his champagne liberal tastes — and just move in and pull up the drawbridge so he wouldn’t have to see the peons (that’s us).
And we wouldn’t have to see him. Here’s my fairytale ending.
Finally, Rome rightly said, wait a second you don’t get to choose the cathedral site. We get to choose the cathedral site. And furthermore, it can’t be outside of Charlotte.!
PS St. Mark’s as I mentioned is 30 miles outside of downtown Charlotte, and is in Huntersville.
As an ex-Catholic, I find all this internal fighting better than a soap opera.
I remember as a young boy in the 1970s going to my local parish church in a rural part of England, even being an altar boy there. The nuns had guitars, and it was the era of “SingalongaJesus”.
One new young priest came in to that church, and he liked to crack a few jokes during his homily. As a boy, I thought this was amusing. Well, he disappeared one day. Later, I found out that the conservative laypeople had complained to the bishop about him being frivolous. He was given the heave-ho and we got an elderly Irish priest instead, an old and steady hand.
I notice that when a conservative Pope is in office, traditionalists cleave relentlessly to the line that the hierarchy must be obeyed. Ratzinger was of this stamp, who as Cardinal dealt ruthlessly with anyone who opposed him. Yet when a more progressive Pope is in place, traditionalists change their tack and begin to relentlessly undermine that Pope and his supporters. A fair bit of hypocrisy there, I would say. Looking at you, Cardinal Burke, among others.
The problem with Popes is of the Church’s own making. The 19th century proclamation that Popes are infallible on matters of faith and morals gladdened the Catholic supremacists of that time, but it has led to endless problems. Infallible Popes can’t be disagreed with or contradicted in later decades. That is the problem both reformers and traditionalists have had to grapple with, even as different Popes say different things.
It would be better if papal infallibility were reversed and the Popes were seen as people who could get things wrong. Then the Church could have meaningful debates, with the prospect of things being changed eventually. As it is, the Church has hoisted itself on its own petard.
I'm glad you are amused. I always like to brighten someone's day when I can.
But really it is people like you who provide the entertainment. Soap operas, even the Brazilian ones, eventually come to an end after hundreds of episodes. But with you people there is no end to the saga. You splutter and puff over the most abstruse matters, ones which most normal people, even Catholics, have never heard of or don't care about.
As for papal infallibility, even at the time it was proposed it was highly controversial. Many good and devout Catholics were outraged by it. It's a sign of decadence that what was once seen as a corruption of position and egregious grandiosity came to be regarded as normal and even essential to the way the Church functioned.
So you, and people like you, please carry on with your micro-tirades and interminable disputes. I've got plenty of popcorn, and I don't even need to shell out for a ticket for all this entertainment. It's free.
Popes are seen as people who can get things wrong. They always have been. Infallibility is a very limited protection against error in teaching in very specific matters.
Your choice and freedom to leave the Church, but you should at least strive to accurately understand accurately what you ostensibly disagree with.
Historically, it's been the exact opposite. The progressives continuously rejected JP2 and Benedict and then become ultramontanists the minute they got a guy they liked. John Paul II constantly complained about Bishops who flagrantly disobeyed him. Until recently, conservatives just rolled over. Now we understand the game, and the progressive elements are old fogies who have become the caricatures of the "rigid" priests they used to despise.
Boy, where to begin? I think thou protesteth too much. I suggest a deep dive into the real meaning of Papal Infallibility and I pray you come home to the real faith before you are called home.
Looking at your account, I see that you have restacked a vile fake news story praising Putin’s FSB. That would be the same Putin who has been conducting a brutal genocidal war against Ukraine. And perhaps you are a Trump voter also, a man who is an utter disgrace and a scoundrel of the first water?
In short, you should be ashamed of yourself. You have no credibility and no moral authority to give advice to anyone. Save your hypocrisy for someone else. I’m not interested.
Agreed...nowhere in 2000 years of interpreting scripture by scholars has any compelling reason ever been offered for "papal infallibiity" clearly no more than a power play imposed by a 19thC regressivist pope with limited vision or understanding. A big mistake for the catholic church certainly.
Yes, a mistake. It was overreach by Pope IX, who wished to keep the modern world at bay by doubling down on the central auhority of the Church and especially that of the Pope.
Interestingly, the replies to my post all mention how limited its scope is and how rarely it is used, as if Catholics themselves know that it’s not very convincing and must be downplayed at al tiimes. These days, it’s rather like having a nuclear bomb in one’s back yard - it could be used, theoretically, but we’re not very keen on actually doing that.
He is certainly missing a vibe shift. Here, in much less tradition- minded Brussels, people under fifty are kneeling on the floor for the canon of the Mass and the Agnus Dei is sung in Latin.
I must say, Mr Tierney, this post was well worth the wait. I would like to point out, that if I get to do it, I will drive one hour late this afternoon to go to a TLM for the feast of the Ascension. The priest says both the NO and TLM and when TC was issued he told me nearly everyone thought it was ill considered.
I can only assume he's one of the lavender Mafia Don's. Such irreverence and spite against all that is holy and sacred can only stem from an abominable disordered affection.
As a parishoner in the Charlotte Diocese, I fully support removing this bishop. I have not liked the lack of reverence I have witnessed saying the NO Mass. He is flippant and going thru the motions as if he wishes he didn't have to. When giving communion, he stands IN FRONT of the altar rails, if the church has them, and refuses to let parishoners kneel inside their church that THEY are paying to participate in. He has placed his zuchetto (Bishops hat) on a female and several male students as if it is a party hat. His leaked letter seals the deal that he is attacking the church. The Diocese of Charlotte was flourishing and this guy is running it into the ground. Not only is this illegal what he is doing according to Catholic documents, it's downright cruel. My husband and I have already decided to send our $ elsewhere to another State but still attend the same church as long as this guy is in charge. We don't trust him.
I think this comment sums up the essence of the “vibe shift”. We have all woken up to the fact that we are under attack, and are now wary of any authority figure who doesn’t at least tacitly acknowledge that fact, and try to limit the impact. People have just had enough. If the traditions of the Catholic Church is so bad, why not join a different organisation?
You can also form an Una Voce group to get a Latin Mass on your own (with priest sponsor). You ou should contact as many priests as you can to let them know your views and enlist help. They need to fight with you, and probably will.
You can keep your contributions local by donating to a crisis pregnancy center, homeless shelter, food pantry, etc.
Yes but if you form an Una Voce group like Charlotte Latin Mass Society, it is a non-profit organization to which anyone can donate. The group needs to buy proper vestments, vessels, monstrance, altar cloths, etc. Our local group has received tremendous donations from all over, even across country.
This sickens me. I hope parishioners ask him hard questions, respectfully, of course.
He’ll just saying he’s following Francis’ directive. I wouldn’t trust a word out of his mouth.
"Ask hard questions"like why are you in the Catholic hrirarchy? Why are you deliberately trying to destroy the church? The time for respect to this prelate has long past. He has absolutely no respect for his flock, whom he has abandoned.
He is arrogant, hateful and has distain for reverent, traditional Catholicism.
Lucy he is ill-equipped to manage our Diocese. He seems to behave as it’s a party and I suppose this comes from being the priest at Duke for a decade. Attempting to relate to the younger crowd in a clownish way. Can you imagine Bishop Jugis doing this? A classic demonstration of him not knowing his flock is reassigning Fr Marcel (an African priest) from NC A&T (and HPU). Does Bishop Martin really think a white priest will be able to relate to black Catholic students? I was floored when I saw the list published. And 3 or 4 Sabbaticals.
And 4 Priest retirements ! Yes, if I had to report to him I would certainly leave rather than deal with this nonsense. Pray for these Priests leaving and going on Sabbatical. They are holy priests and know they will get themselves defrocked if they stay because they cannot obey him in good conscience. Perhaps they can help their communities better if they do not report to him anymore. His actions are anti-Catholic. Pray for the good Priests still there fighting the righteous fight for their flock.
Yesss that too! I don’t recall ever that many at one time with a large # of sabbaticals. Just received my diocese newspaper so I can pray for these priests by name. We do have a lot of good priests in our diocese and are blessed with a thriving seminary. I pray for our seminarians to remain steadfast and faithful to what is true.
My husband and I feel the exact same way! The priest of our parish recently announced his sabbatical will begin July 8 and now I know why. We are devastated, as he has meant more to our faith than any other priest in our adult lives. I’m just sickened by all of this! One of the beauties of the faith is that its doctrines don’t (or shouldn’t!) change - despite the never ending pressure for everything else in this world to “progress ”. God be with our Catholic brothers and sisters, and the priests who might be silenced by this bishop.
Doctrines don't change; however, bishops like him ignore them and do what they want. Then this puts the Priests below the bishop in an unfair and difficult position of whether to follow Catholic Doctrine/ Canon Law or to be obedient to their Bishop, as they promised in their vows when becoming a Priest. It puts these Priests in a terrible situation knowing what is best for the souls of their flock, but still struggling with the honor of their vow. Of course, this internal conflict wouldn't even exist if the bishop was following the Catholic Faith.
I simply can't believe what you are positing as facts are facts. My feeling is you're a "plant" imposed by the radtrads in order to discredit this bishop. Last time I looked the RC Church was governed by the 2nd Vatican Council no longer by Trent. Why don't you just admit you're not an objective bystander but 1 casting stones?!
Since when do the Church councils replace everything previous? And how is this being an “objective bystander” when we are all one Body of Christ? We should feel the pain of our persecuted brethren.
For the record, I was born in 1970 and never even knew there was such a thing as a Traditional Latin Mass until 1 year ago. Due to the boring folk music, lack of faith and reverence within the Mass, lack of Catechism teaching (even though went to Catholic School a few years and CCD until I graduated), I fell away from the church for about 10 years. I tried other Protestant religions, but they were even less reverent and even more sing-songy. It wasn't until I discovered my Parish and was properly instructed by a reverent Conservative Priest offering a reverent Novus Ordo that I finally realized what I had been missing was finally found. Then to find the Parish ALSO offered a TLM was icing on the cake. I had never seen one and it has drawn me so much closer to God and prayer than I ever imagined would be possible. I go to BOTH NO and TLM depending on my schedule. I don't know the debates of why one is better or more valid or all that other nonsense and I'm not interested in writing a college thesis on the differences. Why on earth would ANYONE stomp on such wonderful results as we see in my traditional parish that has both ? By the fruits, you will know. My Parish has no altar girls - there are 6 to 10 altar boys at any given Sunday Mass. Our Priest and Deacon pass out communion while parishoners kneel at an altar rail. None of this unconsecrated hands, lay people stuff. Most parishoners are around 30-40 years old with children. 7 of the 44 Seminarians currently in the Diocese come from my specific church. Our coffers are bursting over richly. By our fruits, you will know.
He has indeed painted himself into a corner. Nothing wrong with letting him sit in it for a while.
"From Vibe Shift to Stick Shift: Bishop (Aston) Martin grinds the gears as he drops his new Diocesan Roadster into Reverse. A cautionary Bertie Wooster Moment."
Sit in the corner and wear a dunce cap.
Love this! Like the old illustrations of a naughty boy put in a corner with his nose on the wall. Some soul searching is in order
For sure. Hopefully while soul searching he discovers a big dose of humility.
I won’t ever dispute the notion that there are so-called “traditionalists” out there who are divisive and sometimes just plain jerks. Even as one that most would characterize as a “trad” myself, I’ve seen it and even had such poor behavior directed at me.
But let’s use this as a good demonstration, with human’s of all stripes being of a fallen nature, that those the “Novus Ordo variety” (for lack of a better term) can be just as divisive and act like jerks to others and even be Bishops.
His excellency has just destroyed years of bridge building, creating a whole new generation of trads who will likely now have more divisive voices and a stellar example to point to in order to justify their beliefs to others.
What a guy.
Honestly, the worst part is not the Mass, but the totally abysmal confessions they give. I've had Priests explicitly tell me to "not worry" about certain things that were grave matter. I had a gay colleague who went to confession and the Priest recommend that he "get a boyfriend".
I've heard it said before that sometimes the confessor and/or his counsel is part of the penance. It's helpful to have that mindset when encountering this type of nonsense.
lol! We are dealing with a meltdown moment in Charlotte
With respect to the point about how people at the NO can be like this: I tell people welcome to the human race a lot. Sometimes I say welcome to the church if they’re really not getting it.
I’ve said it elsewhere and I stand by it. The man is a dick. Think of it as the modern viper or whitened sepulchre.
Well, it is the Chinese Year of the snake .... so the demons are out in full force.
Ban Latin from the Novus Ordo in all parishes, even in prayers such as the Agnus Dei, on the rationale that nobody was smart enough to understand what the responses mean. (A case of self-implication MF Doom warned us about)
Restrict kneeling for communion.
Ban Altar Rails
Restrict reception of communion on the tongue
Ban classical vestments
Ban Altar crucifixes
Ban Altar candles
Banning priests praying privately while vesting
Banning optional prayers by the laity and priest after the conclusion of Mass
So, in short, ban from the Catholic Church everything that makes it the Catholic Church and part of the history of the Church.
I'm a Baptist, but I loved the Latin Masses when I went with friends. It gave me sense of timelessness and order. Everything from the kneeling, to prayers, to psalms, to the communion.
What's the purpose of getting rid of all this? To drive more people from the church and into their own houses again?
What's next, priests not visiting the sick in hospitals?
The purpose is of course the continued destruction of the family and Christianity to usher in a one world religion whatever that may be. It also goes along with the rising number of Muslims throughout Western society who straight up admit they will be the religion of the world. Slowly but surely they are converting lost souls.
Great summary. I would make two comments.
First, the bishop’s handling of this matter showed a remarkable lack of prudence, whatever your views on the liturgy.
Secondly, people feel like they have had enough of those in authority apparently doing everything they can to destroy the organisations they are supposed to be running. To me is this is the essence of the vibe shift: just do your job, stop attacking those of us who are still bothering to turn up.
Brilliant! Love your response!
You should ask, who is his handler? This smacks of a globalist agent finding a patsy to work its will to destroy anything in its way! This is not the work on one man!
Leo. And Francis behind him. By the Dead Hand. Recall Martin met Leo in Rome in April. See Chris Jackson’s article today.
I agree with your basic observation that Leo—again just like Francis before him—is the globalist pick. The powers behind the throne to which you refer definitely needed a blander, smoother (kinder and gentler) salesman. The old cantankerous bouncer-image of Bergoglio was wearing thin on friend and foe alike (with the exception of the fawning Catholic press, shout out to John Allen et al.). So while I believe Francis did everything he could to set Leo up as dauphin, that was in consultation with the Deep Church, which in my observing includes the clerical Lavender and Saint Gallen mafia.
The Usurpation Engenders Only Usurpation.
It's been documented in Martin's meeting with Pope Leo that he was advised to slow down and don't implement like he's doing ... keep in mind this was after Leo, as the head of the dicastery for bishops, had his opinion, apparently, passed over, in choosing Martin for Charlotte, by Francis.
“Been documented.” Passive voice. “Reliable sources say.”
Two things I always look for as a historian (and even just as a critical reader) and beware are the passive voice and anonymous sources. I for one don’t fully trust the pillar boyz.
Well, neither one indicates the T. L. M. was included in Leo’s alleged “caution.”
All hard evidence so far about Leo points to Francis 2.0.
Well, the T. L. M. wasn’t mentioned in those reports. It referred to Martin’s lunacy mandates on the Novus Ordo (no kneelers, no vestments, no LATIN—because the devil hates Latin) and no you knucklehead Martin you can’t move in to St Marks—3rd largest booming parish in the whole United States/- a cathedral 30 miles outside of downtown Charlotte and make that your new little home.
This Franciscan is a poof who should just build himself a Casa Santa Marta somewhere— where he can indulge his champagne liberal tastes — and just move in and pull up the drawbridge so he wouldn’t have to see the peons (that’s us).
And we wouldn’t have to see him. Here’s my fairytale ending.
Bishop Martin , never to be seen again.
And they all lived happily after!
Finally, Rome rightly said, wait a second you don’t get to choose the cathedral site. We get to choose the cathedral site. And furthermore, it can’t be outside of Charlotte.!
PS St. Mark’s as I mentioned is 30 miles outside of downtown Charlotte, and is in Huntersville.
Ironically, banning Latin puts him in violation of the Vatican II document Sacrosanctum Concilium.
Excellent analysis! This is not time for silence!
As an ex-Catholic, I find all this internal fighting better than a soap opera.
I remember as a young boy in the 1970s going to my local parish church in a rural part of England, even being an altar boy there. The nuns had guitars, and it was the era of “SingalongaJesus”.
One new young priest came in to that church, and he liked to crack a few jokes during his homily. As a boy, I thought this was amusing. Well, he disappeared one day. Later, I found out that the conservative laypeople had complained to the bishop about him being frivolous. He was given the heave-ho and we got an elderly Irish priest instead, an old and steady hand.
I notice that when a conservative Pope is in office, traditionalists cleave relentlessly to the line that the hierarchy must be obeyed. Ratzinger was of this stamp, who as Cardinal dealt ruthlessly with anyone who opposed him. Yet when a more progressive Pope is in place, traditionalists change their tack and begin to relentlessly undermine that Pope and his supporters. A fair bit of hypocrisy there, I would say. Looking at you, Cardinal Burke, among others.
The problem with Popes is of the Church’s own making. The 19th century proclamation that Popes are infallible on matters of faith and morals gladdened the Catholic supremacists of that time, but it has led to endless problems. Infallible Popes can’t be disagreed with or contradicted in later decades. That is the problem both reformers and traditionalists have had to grapple with, even as different Popes say different things.
It would be better if papal infallibility were reversed and the Popes were seen as people who could get things wrong. Then the Church could have meaningful debates, with the prospect of things being changed eventually. As it is, the Church has hoisted itself on its own petard.
Pure comedy gold. I haven't laughed so much until now at such a huge misunderstanding of Church Magisterium.
Another “I went to Catholic school” moment from John Tortoise (because he’s slow, lol).
Imagine being this confidently ignorant?
I'm glad you are amused. I always like to brighten someone's day when I can.
But really it is people like you who provide the entertainment. Soap operas, even the Brazilian ones, eventually come to an end after hundreds of episodes. But with you people there is no end to the saga. You splutter and puff over the most abstruse matters, ones which most normal people, even Catholics, have never heard of or don't care about.
As for papal infallibility, even at the time it was proposed it was highly controversial. Many good and devout Catholics were outraged by it. It's a sign of decadence that what was once seen as a corruption of position and egregious grandiosity came to be regarded as normal and even essential to the way the Church functioned.
So you, and people like you, please carry on with your micro-tirades and interminable disputes. I've got plenty of popcorn, and I don't even need to shell out for a ticket for all this entertainment. It's free.
Ha ha. You still don’t understand it.
It's precisely because I understood it, all too well in fact, that I am now an ex.
Oh, I'm truly sorry you jumped off the cliff. It's never too late to come back and save yourself.
Thanks for the offer, but snake pits aren’t my favourite places.
A veneer of history is not understanding the Church. Close, but not quite.
Popes are seen as people who can get things wrong. They always have been. Infallibility is a very limited protection against error in teaching in very specific matters.
Your choice and freedom to leave the Church, but you should at least strive to accurately understand accurately what you ostensibly disagree with.
Historically, it's been the exact opposite. The progressives continuously rejected JP2 and Benedict and then become ultramontanists the minute they got a guy they liked. John Paul II constantly complained about Bishops who flagrantly disobeyed him. Until recently, conservatives just rolled over. Now we understand the game, and the progressive elements are old fogies who have become the caricatures of the "rigid" priests they used to despise.
Boy, where to begin? I think thou protesteth too much. I suggest a deep dive into the real meaning of Papal Infallibility and I pray you come home to the real faith before you are called home.
Looking at your account, I see that you have restacked a vile fake news story praising Putin’s FSB. That would be the same Putin who has been conducting a brutal genocidal war against Ukraine. And perhaps you are a Trump voter also, a man who is an utter disgrace and a scoundrel of the first water?
In short, you should be ashamed of yourself. You have no credibility and no moral authority to give advice to anyone. Save your hypocrisy for someone else. I’m not interested.
Agreed...nowhere in 2000 years of interpreting scripture by scholars has any compelling reason ever been offered for "papal infallibiity" clearly no more than a power play imposed by a 19thC regressivist pope with limited vision or understanding. A big mistake for the catholic church certainly.
Yes, a mistake. It was overreach by Pope IX, who wished to keep the modern world at bay by doubling down on the central auhority of the Church and especially that of the Pope.
Interestingly, the replies to my post all mention how limited its scope is and how rarely it is used, as if Catholics themselves know that it’s not very convincing and must be downplayed at al tiimes. These days, it’s rather like having a nuclear bomb in one’s back yard - it could be used, theoretically, but we’re not very keen on actually doing that.
There have very few times when papal infallibility was demonstrated
He is certainly missing a vibe shift. Here, in much less tradition- minded Brussels, people under fifty are kneeling on the floor for the canon of the Mass and the Agnus Dei is sung in Latin.
He could have easily insisted on the opposites; ie must use altar rails, kneel, pray etc; if he indeed was concerned for unity of the parish.
There is something alarming in his insistence that a low standard be the only standard. Is he offended ; or threatened by piety ?
I must say, Mr Tierney, this post was well worth the wait. I would like to point out, that if I get to do it, I will drive one hour late this afternoon to go to a TLM for the feast of the Ascension. The priest says both the NO and TLM and when TC was issued he told me nearly everyone thought it was ill considered.
And Rome watches with an analytical eye...can it be done?
Excellent article
I can only assume he's one of the lavender Mafia Don's. Such irreverence and spite against all that is holy and sacred can only stem from an abominable disordered affection.